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	<title>Comments on: Brigham Young on Marriage</title>
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	<link>http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/2008/11/03/brigham-young-on-marriage/</link>
	<description>The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has gone too far in substantial activities to influence legislation.</description>
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		<title>By: lds501c3</title>
		<link>http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/2008/11/03/brigham-young-on-marriage/#comment-264</link>
		<dc:creator>lds501c3</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 22:18:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/?p=11#comment-264</guid>
		<description>Jason - 

You make a good point.  On one hand, obtaining &quot;separate but equal&quot; rights in the interim might have worked, and paved the way for greater acceptance over time.  On the other hand, it could have set back true equality for decades in that the opponents of equal marriage would say &quot;We already gave you civil unions, so stop complaining.&quot;

I&#039;m not sure what the correct strategy is.  While I oppose Proposition 8, I actually am of the opinion that now is not the right time to be pushing these court cases and ballot initiatives, and that in 10-15 more years the demographics will have shifted sufficiently in favor of equal marriage that it will make sense.  Of course, Obama&#039;s appointees to the Supreme Court may mean that the equal marriage proponents will finally argue Federal equal protection and/or full faith and credit, permitting certiorari.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason &#8211; </p>
<p>You make a good point.  On one hand, obtaining &#8220;separate but equal&#8221; rights in the interim might have worked, and paved the way for greater acceptance over time.  On the other hand, it could have set back true equality for decades in that the opponents of equal marriage would say &#8220;We already gave you civil unions, so stop complaining.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure what the correct strategy is.  While I oppose Proposition 8, I actually am of the opinion that now is not the right time to be pushing these court cases and ballot initiatives, and that in 10-15 more years the demographics will have shifted sufficiently in favor of equal marriage that it will make sense.  Of course, Obama&#8217;s appointees to the Supreme Court may mean that the equal marriage proponents will finally argue Federal equal protection and/or full faith and credit, permitting certiorari.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/2008/11/03/brigham-young-on-marriage/#comment-212</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Nov 2008 03:53:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/?p=11#comment-212</guid>
		<description>Being a gay man, I have always said that if we had moved forward several years ago asking for civil unions that provided exactly the same rights both statewide and nationwide, I believe we would have them now.  Marriage is even in my mind a religious term....the problem is it is so deep set in our country that marriage is the acceptable term.  There would have to be a national acceptance of civil unions and marriage would have to be accepted as performed by churches.  I would have no problem with that but it would be a huge undertaking.  If you read the LDS letter you will see that they say they support our rights ....maybe we should ask them to start the movement.  If what they wrote is actually true they would have to think it was a good idea....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Being a gay man, I have always said that if we had moved forward several years ago asking for civil unions that provided exactly the same rights both statewide and nationwide, I believe we would have them now.  Marriage is even in my mind a religious term&#8230;.the problem is it is so deep set in our country that marriage is the acceptable term.  There would have to be a national acceptance of civil unions and marriage would have to be accepted as performed by churches.  I would have no problem with that but it would be a huge undertaking.  If you read the LDS letter you will see that they say they support our rights &#8230;.maybe we should ask them to start the movement.  If what they wrote is actually true they would have to think it was a good idea&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/2008/11/03/brigham-young-on-marriage/#comment-173</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Nov 2008 17:16:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/?p=11#comment-173</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s stunning to see the twisted logic from those who would deny others their basic human rights (and yes, the Supreme Court has defined marriage as a &quot;fundamental right&quot;).  Gay couples have children and families just like straight couples do -- there is no difference.  I don&#039;t see how people are so obsessed with the biological issues, are we human beings or baby factories?

Domestic partnerships and marriage are NOT the same thing.  The former gives far more rights than the latter, and until a large number of states allow gay marriage, there is no way that gay marriage will be recognized by the federal government.

Simple example: I have a gay friend who has been in a 11 year long relationship with another man.  One of them owns the house they live in.  Married couples are allowed to transfer unlimited amounts of property between them and when a spouse dies, he or she inherits all the money tax free.

One of them had much more money than the other, so he pays $800 a year for an insurance policy that would pay the taxes incurred if he died -- otherwise his partner would be on the street after being forced to sell their house!

Domestic partnerships don&#039;t help with this problem, but legalizing gay marriage does.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s stunning to see the twisted logic from those who would deny others their basic human rights (and yes, the Supreme Court has defined marriage as a &#8220;fundamental right&#8221;).  Gay couples have children and families just like straight couples do &#8212; there is no difference.  I don&#8217;t see how people are so obsessed with the biological issues, are we human beings or baby factories?</p>
<p>Domestic partnerships and marriage are NOT the same thing.  The former gives far more rights than the latter, and until a large number of states allow gay marriage, there is no way that gay marriage will be recognized by the federal government.</p>
<p>Simple example: I have a gay friend who has been in a 11 year long relationship with another man.  One of them owns the house they live in.  Married couples are allowed to transfer unlimited amounts of property between them and when a spouse dies, he or she inherits all the money tax free.</p>
<p>One of them had much more money than the other, so he pays $800 a year for an insurance policy that would pay the taxes incurred if he died &#8212; otherwise his partner would be on the street after being forced to sell their house!</p>
<p>Domestic partnerships don&#8217;t help with this problem, but legalizing gay marriage does.</p>
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		<title>By: H</title>
		<link>http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/2008/11/03/brigham-young-on-marriage/#comment-127</link>
		<dc:creator>H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 23:01:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/?p=11#comment-127</guid>
		<description>So, Amia, would I be right in thinking that your logic means infertile heterosexual couples cannot get married, they can only get a domestic partnership then?  And that allowing infertile heterosexual couples to be married, despite the fact that they cannot bear children, would have societal implications?  Oh, and that heterosexual couples who wish to get married, but have no intention of ever having children, should be told that they cannot get married?

As to why this is a civil rights issue, it&#039;s simple: a right (that of marriage) was legally granted to homosexual people, in order to ensure that all citizens of California had the same rights regarding marriage.  Prop 8 was designed to remove that legally granted right.  Imagine now if a proposition had been designed to take away the right of blacks to vote, or the right of women to own property, or the right of any other minority group - would you be questioning whether that was a civil rights issue?  I&#039;m going to guess that you&#039;re smart enough to answer no, you wouldn&#039;t question, and so it should be with gay marriage.

If anyone&#039;s still struggling with why gay people can&#039;t just be happy with domestic partnerships, go and attend a gay wedding somewhere (e.g. Canada), witness the emotion, the love, the hope, everything that happens in any marriage ceremony, and you&#039;ll understand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, Amia, would I be right in thinking that your logic means infertile heterosexual couples cannot get married, they can only get a domestic partnership then?  And that allowing infertile heterosexual couples to be married, despite the fact that they cannot bear children, would have societal implications?  Oh, and that heterosexual couples who wish to get married, but have no intention of ever having children, should be told that they cannot get married?</p>
<p>As to why this is a civil rights issue, it&#8217;s simple: a right (that of marriage) was legally granted to homosexual people, in order to ensure that all citizens of California had the same rights regarding marriage.  Prop 8 was designed to remove that legally granted right.  Imagine now if a proposition had been designed to take away the right of blacks to vote, or the right of women to own property, or the right of any other minority group &#8211; would you be questioning whether that was a civil rights issue?  I&#8217;m going to guess that you&#8217;re smart enough to answer no, you wouldn&#8217;t question, and so it should be with gay marriage.</p>
<p>If anyone&#8217;s still struggling with why gay people can&#8217;t just be happy with domestic partnerships, go and attend a gay wedding somewhere (e.g. Canada), witness the emotion, the love, the hope, everything that happens in any marriage ceremony, and you&#8217;ll understand.</p>
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		<title>By: DAVE</title>
		<link>http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/2008/11/03/brigham-young-on-marriage/#comment-94</link>
		<dc:creator>DAVE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 17:13:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/?p=11#comment-94</guid>
		<description>Mormons destroyed my marriage and made us separated from society by a constitutional admendment.  All I can say to the Mormons is: Remember the Mountain Meadow Massacre where your church members murdered over 150 men, women and children who were wanting travel by wagon train through Utah?  What wonderful Christians you are!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mormons destroyed my marriage and made us separated from society by a constitutional admendment.  All I can say to the Mormons is: Remember the Mountain Meadow Massacre where your church members murdered over 150 men, women and children who were wanting travel by wagon train through Utah?  What wonderful Christians you are!</p>
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		<title>By: Anon</title>
		<link>http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/2008/11/03/brigham-young-on-marriage/#comment-91</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 16:31:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/?p=11#comment-91</guid>
		<description>Honestly, it&#039;s hilarious to see everyone bicker about how a &quot;domestic partnership&quot; can never be equal to a &quot;marriage&quot; due to semantics. Think about it, gays are never going to be synonymous with average heterosexuals! There is already an inherent difference between the two. They both perform sexual intercourse differently, and there is no possibility that a gay couple could naturally bear children.

I&#039;m sorry, gays are just going to have to get used to the fact that they&#039;re different, and accept that that fact will never change. Homosexuals being different doesn&#039;t bother me, they&#039;re people too and deserve all of the love, compassion, and equality that everyone else has.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Honestly, it&#8217;s hilarious to see everyone bicker about how a &#8220;domestic partnership&#8221; can never be equal to a &#8220;marriage&#8221; due to semantics. Think about it, gays are never going to be synonymous with average heterosexuals! There is already an inherent difference between the two. They both perform sexual intercourse differently, and there is no possibility that a gay couple could naturally bear children.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sorry, gays are just going to have to get used to the fact that they&#8217;re different, and accept that that fact will never change. Homosexuals being different doesn&#8217;t bother me, they&#8217;re people too and deserve all of the love, compassion, and equality that everyone else has.</p>
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		<title>By: Amia</title>
		<link>http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/2008/11/03/brigham-young-on-marriage/#comment-83</link>
		<dc:creator>Amia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 16:05:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/?p=11#comment-83</guid>
		<description>Just calling something by a name does not make it equivalent. Under law, which is completely based on words, terminology matters and carries tremendous weight. One reason that marriage is often defined under the law as something different from homosexual unions with the same priveleges is that there are certain biological functions that accompany the marriage of a man and woman that are simply not possible for homosexual unions--particularly such unions between men. Adoption is not equivalent to live birth. The societal implications of the ability of families to bear children (not just raise them) is important. Just look at the impact of the demographics of the baby boomer generation if you don&#039;t believe that biology influences society in very real ways. 

I have yet to see how calling a civil union a marriage (changing the definition of marriage to include couples that cannot perform the task that was the reason for government tampering with the union of people in the first place) is a civil rights issue. 

These arguments regarding biology, too, go to the polygamy question and how a polygamous marriage might be a marriage, while civil unions might still not be. That said, I don&#039;t think that polygamy is marriage, it is polygamy. And bigamy isn&#039;t marriage, it&#039;s bigamy. If these things were to become legal (which I hope they never do), they should be called by different names because they are different things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just calling something by a name does not make it equivalent. Under law, which is completely based on words, terminology matters and carries tremendous weight. One reason that marriage is often defined under the law as something different from homosexual unions with the same priveleges is that there are certain biological functions that accompany the marriage of a man and woman that are simply not possible for homosexual unions&#8211;particularly such unions between men. Adoption is not equivalent to live birth. The societal implications of the ability of families to bear children (not just raise them) is important. Just look at the impact of the demographics of the baby boomer generation if you don&#8217;t believe that biology influences society in very real ways. </p>
<p>I have yet to see how calling a civil union a marriage (changing the definition of marriage to include couples that cannot perform the task that was the reason for government tampering with the union of people in the first place) is a civil rights issue. </p>
<p>These arguments regarding biology, too, go to the polygamy question and how a polygamous marriage might be a marriage, while civil unions might still not be. That said, I don&#8217;t think that polygamy is marriage, it is polygamy. And bigamy isn&#8217;t marriage, it&#8217;s bigamy. If these things were to become legal (which I hope they never do), they should be called by different names because they are different things.</p>
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		<title>By: Lizzie</title>
		<link>http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/2008/11/03/brigham-young-on-marriage/#comment-81</link>
		<dc:creator>Lizzie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 16:02:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/?p=11#comment-81</guid>
		<description>I believe the idea of this post is to point out the conflicts of opinion of the LDS as it relates to others versus themselves. This is an issue many modern day LDS have struggled with, but the dogma of the religion does not allow alternative actions of the LDS person from the official stance of the church. The church is the true church, the church nows, by talking to God, what you should do. If you follow another discourse, unless instructed by your religious leaders, then you are not of good standing in the church. We have been taught this for years. And it does create a certain hostility in an individual as opposed to the Catholic church, who carries similiar doctrine in that way. However, you may remain a member of the Catholic church, in good standing by using the confessional booth. 

As to the original post. If you read carefully, at the end of the legislation pertaining to religious entities using their money to influence legislation, it actually says to support or work against any CANDIDATE. What my issue is, is that there has already been an opion given by the highest court in the land, the Supreme Court, on the marriage issue. I think the bottom line issue here is the right of the States to govern themselves, although I was surprised at the outcome of Prop 8 vote and think the courts ruling should be upheld.

[Editor: If you read carefully you&#039;ll notice there are two prohibitions: substantial activity attempting to influence legislation (which I made bold), and endorsement of or opposition to a candidate (which I did not).  It is only the first part I am concerned with.]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe the idea of this post is to point out the conflicts of opinion of the LDS as it relates to others versus themselves. This is an issue many modern day LDS have struggled with, but the dogma of the religion does not allow alternative actions of the LDS person from the official stance of the church. The church is the true church, the church nows, by talking to God, what you should do. If you follow another discourse, unless instructed by your religious leaders, then you are not of good standing in the church. We have been taught this for years. And it does create a certain hostility in an individual as opposed to the Catholic church, who carries similiar doctrine in that way. However, you may remain a member of the Catholic church, in good standing by using the confessional booth. </p>
<p>As to the original post. If you read carefully, at the end of the legislation pertaining to religious entities using their money to influence legislation, it actually says to support or work against any CANDIDATE. What my issue is, is that there has already been an opion given by the highest court in the land, the Supreme Court, on the marriage issue. I think the bottom line issue here is the right of the States to govern themselves, although I was surprised at the outcome of Prop 8 vote and think the courts ruling should be upheld.</p>
<p>[Editor: If you read carefully you'll notice there are two prohibitions: substantial activity attempting to influence legislation (which I made bold), and endorsement of or opposition to a candidate (which I did not).  It is only the first part I am concerned with.]</p>
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		<title>By: Heidi</title>
		<link>http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/2008/11/03/brigham-young-on-marriage/#comment-80</link>
		<dc:creator>Heidi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 16:01:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/?p=11#comment-80</guid>
		<description>what the hell would brigham young know about marriage and it&#039;s defination the [expletive deleted] was married to young innocent girls, hell he collected wifes</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>what the hell would brigham young know about marriage and it&#8217;s defination the [expletive deleted] was married to young innocent girls, hell he collected wifes</p>
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		<title>By: kim</title>
		<link>http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/2008/11/03/brigham-young-on-marriage/#comment-74</link>
		<dc:creator>kim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 15:33:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/?p=11#comment-74</guid>
		<description>The &quot;separate but equal&quot; argument is very valid.  It excludes 1 group from enjoying the benefits the more prestigious name confers.  Marriage is more respected than domestic partnership.  DP doesn&#039;t sound as permanent as M and if they are exactly equal why have 2 separate names.   1 name, equality for everyone.  Yes this is off topic.

I do think an investigation should be led into political undertakings to advance religious doctrine into government.  Prefer tax status should be for humanitarian benefit and keeping these institutions going.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;separate but equal&#8221; argument is very valid.  It excludes 1 group from enjoying the benefits the more prestigious name confers.  Marriage is more respected than domestic partnership.  DP doesn&#8217;t sound as permanent as M and if they are exactly equal why have 2 separate names.   1 name, equality for everyone.  Yes this is off topic.</p>
<p>I do think an investigation should be led into political undertakings to advance religious doctrine into government.  Prefer tax status should be for humanitarian benefit and keeping these institutions going.</p>
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